The Rep System

[jwhtan]

Originally Posted by TOM32

1. I do not like your Thread - This will discourage bros posting new thread
on subject about aros especially the newbies
whom may have little knowledge or nothing.
They may afraid that their thread will be out
of point - hence get zap.
Sorry, i do not mean all newbies has little
knowledge - they are very experienced ones
too.

2. I disagree with your opinion - This will kill freedom of view/opinion
Or you speak against my view

We should encourage bros to put up more threads and i believe that the purpose of AF and why bros/siss are here. These are what i believe Moderators are trying to discourage by adopting this reputation system. We want the system to work but on the otherhand we tell bros not to bother too much about the "rep" point as long as it does not fall beyong -10 sound rather contraditing. For the system to work well, bros must be driven to valued their "rep" point. I am very sure, with very single point zapped, his emotion/feeling will be affected especially without even knowing "WHY". It is good if he/she is rightfully zapped by a member. This make job much easier for the moderator cos now you have members acting as your neigbourhood police watch group. But, we need a double proof system to managed the "Down" or "Zap" or else it will be abused and it will HURT bros and discourage them to free opnion or participation. Eventually, AF may become a monotonous and bore. Imagine, everybody having same opinion

Sirs, our government of parliament also do not want that to happen, they put in place some Neutral Persons to speak out. We need these type of bros in AF too.

In my opinion, may I seek your reconsideration to study my proposal:

You need at least 2 persons to down "1 point" on the same "subject" within 24 hours before the zap is counted. 4 persons = 2 points and so on..........
Sir, this will eliminate personal attack. There will bound to have many bros to speak against a bro if his thread is flamming, insulting or attacking.
But why allow only a person to down a bro for just a different opinion.

The whole thing is abt opinion ... actually even mods decision is all on opinions .. let's say this guy keeps posting something for sale, and its always the same thing ... so we tell him, u hv been consistently selling this stuff, pls do post ur sale at commercial ... i tell u, there'll be 3 kinds of replies .. 1) I not making profit/making very little profit, so its not commercial 2) this is a good lobang, i'm juz sharing lobang, isn't AF all abt sharing ? 3) sorry, it is not my intention to circumvent the guidelines, i'll do so in future .. so wat does tat say ? we'll insist and enforce our guidelines .. but obviously those who disagree will disagree, so again tat is abt opinions .. we can't even conclude the member is wrong .. juz tat in this forum, the mods opinion counts in moderating ...

In this rep system, the opinion is left to the members .. why not two members .. if the post or thread is genuinely bad, tat member will not be zapped by one, he'll be zapped by many, to get two members to zap same post is quite unlikely ...

I disagree with ur opinion will kill freedom of speech/opinion ? - personally i dun think so, disagreeing is by itself an opinion ... why we allow this disagreement to turn to zapping ... in many scenarios we come across, the thread inevitably turns into flaming when disagreement occurs .. many do not want to give their opinion and they just keep quiet, this system allows them to have a say, the silent majority to have a say, in their opinions w/o engaging in the verbal war .

In time to come, most members will hv their rep points gradually increase.

Discourage newbie threads ? not necessarily so, but i hope to discourage frivolous multiple postings of the same thread .. yesterday, one member posted 3 threads " Are u Asian" in arotalk, in chat and in gatherings ... the thread is inappropriate and worse, it spams 3 forums .. so where do we draw a line wat to encourage, discourage ? other than the arotalk FAQ (which very little people read), we've also hv Freshwater Forum Resources and Articles, Planted Forum Resources and Articles, Marine Resources and Articles, why not read up all this before starting a new thread ? I understand newbie concerns, because i'm a newbie in certain aspects too but the archive has so many things to read ? why start another thread on the same ? seriously the level of discussion cannot improve unless the members start to consider this a serious forum .. the mods can lead by starting new threads ... I hv one question for all to ponder ... where are those guys that started with us in 2000/2001/even 2002 ... how many are still here, besides wrx, EH etc still quite active, so many hv actually very little postings since .. wat is the reason ? the forum has too little topic of good discussion and too many frivolous postings/threads .. " why my aro dun eat ? " or " will my 8" flowerhorn kill my 10" aro?" ... in a forum having a demographics as wide as AF, moderating cannot eradicate these postings, it cannot bring the level of discussion higher ... i'll say, let's cut this crap threads out ... but how to do this ? closing all those threads ? tat will be draconian .. actually even those frivolous threads hv their set of supporters, and not because they think it shd be here but because they think its entertaining .. so this method is to give the power of moderating to the members with some safeguards thrown in. U can't eliminate relationship problem... who dun like who ? but we can prevent the continuous zapping of the same person by the same person ... and tat's wat we hv done

[jwhtan]

Originally Posted by neon

I fully agree with your reason on why those member from 2000-2002 isn't so active anymore.it might be due to changing to another hobby,comp prob and the highest possinility is this aro forum LACK of interesting thread.

Recently,lots of people post up pic of an aro and ask people to guess the breed.i wonder why?izzit to educate people about the types of aro or they jz want to seek for genuine opinion?no offence to those that open up that thread.

Been in this forum for few years,i gotta admit that this forum has went thru some "revolution" till some information is misintepret by members.the common one that i usually read here is...some members says that x back is suppose to have spoon head but actually...x back should have bullet head.classic x back has bullet head and not spoon head.of course,there is some classic x back that has spoon head and i dont deny that.

We dont have much interesting thread in this forum.in fact,sometimes, some "clown" will jz appear in this forum and make every members to hate them.. egpen a thread and say that "using corner bubble filter will increase colouration of aro"...etc..this is suppose to be the tread for people to exchange opinion but it ended up as a flaming thread.

We need some constructive thread in this forum and I can only think of few for now..eg:the diff between hgrtg,rtg,hbrtg (we have this thread in here and i believe alot of members gain new knowledge thru the discussion)...diff between YT and 1.5( i was involve in this last time but thanx to bro wrx for enlightened me)we need thread that can help to educate every members here. We need thread that can gain participation from members here to post up their opinion and this is what forum is what about.

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[jwhtan]

Why dun we make whoever zaps the reps be known ?

The likelihood is that threads will be started targetting at individuals
Why u down my reps ?
Wat makes u think I'm not a true fishkeeper
and when there's no reply
Coward, Idiot, Imbecile, Hide behind computer etc

Basically this is also to allow the silent majority to hv a say w/o engaging in flames. And lest u guys be mistaken that I'm immune from this, no I'm not. I'm just as susceptible to being zap points w/o people giving me a reason. For those members I see them as credible, I'll ask them. For others, I dun even bother. That is because the system has been entrusted to them to make the individual choice of wat they want to do. In a thread, I can see some saying they dun care and dun participate and I go take a look at their records. Bingo, they hv a track record of zapping others too.

Basically every system has its merits and demerits, its the people using it tat determines how good the system is ... in a system, because of free will, some will follow the system and make the best of it, some will continually whine amidst suspicions of conspiracy and some will think of methods/ways to abuse it .. this is inevitable

[jwhtan]

Before we implement, we ask ourselves ...

wat else can we do to improve the webby ? wat else can we do to cut out those frivolous threads or unconstructive posts ? will it be nothing ? cos wat we implement may not work ? and then we sit by and do nothing .. or we implement a system tat if properly used, can and will work ...

I'll like to achieve a forum where we can leave most things to the members, tat they can dictate how we progress, maybe like some say, this forum in not mature enough for this but Arofanatics is into its fifth year , when are they going to mature ?

In a very short summary, it is abt threads/postings/members tat are frivolous, the members hv the say to zap them. Or in others like those at the Resources/Articles Forums where members contribute, we add them. Basically, we pass the onus to members to encourage good contributions, discourage frivolous postings.

Please do not pm me why ur reps got zapped, cos I dunno. Its all individual opinions, much like I wun know why u add/zapped another person (including me) and please dun start threads to whine and spew negatives like cowards, idiots, imbeciles etc

Any questions on the system itself, not answered above, u can ask here. But, please dun tok cok here.

For those who are bothered by this system or simply do not wish to be part of it, switch ur board settings that is located at the bottom left hand corner of the main forum page, from Arofanatics (default) to vBulletin3 .. u still have a choice

hmn...how come this thread is all bro john replying only?

after reading all the reply, i felt that most of the reply is quite logical. However i have a suggestion. Is it possible to start a forum which could let bro/sis blend into the crowd more easily? something like a 'feedback forum'. Like bro/sis can post their 'zap or add rep' into that forum. like that, the rest of us can learn from it and improve ourself so that we can blend into the crowd. This forum is not to pinpoint at one another, but to provide an area of improvement. So that as time goes by, we can expect better reply from bro/sis whenever a thread is started.

[jwhtan]

Originally Posted by hiisoka

interesting. i just got zap until left 2 reputation points, wonder which post i offended people and who. anyways to check????

quite interested to know who zap my rep and why.
i dun care abt the points, but if it indicate some people are unhappy with me
or what i said i feel i should have the right to rectify that

check ur user cp ... if there're comments u'll know wat they are .. if not u can at least know which post

I think for the system to work they have to remain unknown by default (of cos they can choose to be known).

How about making it compulsory to click reasons for zapping like selecting from a number of choices, with option to leave own comments in a text field. This is to prevent pple from leaving "kjwhiufgwhguerhg" in a text field.

Having said that, I think most of the time we know vaguely why we are zapped, cos we know the thread and we know what we said in it. Its accepting the zapping that is difficult.

[jwhtan]

Originally Posted by confusekid

I got zap for correcting someone? and pointing to another website that have extensive info about certain topic? If this is the case then I will not post anything any more as you get zap for sharing!!!

isolated case ... so i wun dwell very much on it ...
but the disagreement may be that u ask members here to go to another forum or it is interpreted as such ... and tat's why u got zapped
if i were sharing, i wud hv cut and paste the answer and credit the website for it

[jwhtan]

Originally Posted by lbei

I think the reason that one feels uncomfortable when you get a minus point is because this system is called 'reputation'. So when you get hit you feel like you've taken a hit on your reputation. However if this system is called 'x-factor' or something else then it becomes just numbers.
In fact, calling this system 'reputation' is not exactly fitting, unless it is actually reputation. For example, a person could get zapped because someone does not agree with his/her opinion. But does that mean this person who got zapped has a low repute? A minus point on a reputation should only happen when the person cheats, lies, blackmail or whatever. A minus point on a person's opinion should not reflect on his reputation, but just his opinion. But just because the system is not able to differentiate the two senarios, why should they both be lumped together into an all-encompassing 'reputation'?

this is actually a vBulletin system and reputation refers to forum reputation, nothing to do with a person's real life reputation at all.

The bad thing is that no one dares to post any controversial things anymore. In real life one could cautiously voice 'disagreement', and react according to the situation. One could even suggest something totally away from the norm and then try to convince people. However online, there are no clues, no body language and even no sound. You don't know who might come along and violently object to your post. And when that happens you have no chance to even 'rectify' or even agree to disagree.

ie maybe Person A asks "Is bio-habitat" a good way of reducing nitrates.

Possibily many people knows that it doesn't but no one dares to voice out. Because whether you are right or not, there will be people who think other wise. You might get a minus with a comment "I use bio-habitat and it works so I zap you." And then you'll go O.o"? And this example could be verified. What about those that are mainly a matter of opinion? ie Person B asks "Is a weekly water change enough"? I expect nobody will dare to say "yes" even if that is what they practice, because there is always people who do it twice weekly or even more. Nobody wants to risk getting "You are lazy so I zap you".

The end result would be that everybody agrees with everybody. Without 'challenges' and opposition, breakthroughs in learning or discovery of new knowledge or even new methods of doing things - all these could be shifted to a lower gear.

I refer this thread to you. To me, this clearly shows the debate is alive and kicking. It is not just about disagreement, but how u put forth ur disagreement. This thread shows although there are old established thoughts that are widely accepted, u can still disagree and challenge. Of cos, u hv to challenge with a clear view and perspective. To me, it encourages responsible debate.
http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=170807

With regards to ur water changing example, I refer you to this thread, I think that speaks for itself
http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=170891

lastly,(I'm not sure how to explain the following but I'll try ) the reputation points appears to be indicative of general consensus. However, it is not! The reputation will only reflect accurately on ones reputation if everyone gets to vote. For example, if you see a person who is having a below average reputation point, do you immediately get the impression that this person has more people 'against' him than 'for' him, in respect to the total user base? If so, then rethink it again. The reputation points of any particular person is not the result of a computation of points contributed by every user. It merely shows how many people had made a zap on him/her. While this may look like the same thing, it is not. Lets take this example of a person with -50 posts. It shows that he/she has 'offended' 50 persons (or occasions). However, does it mean than nobody likes him/her? The total membership on this forums is 13,330 at this moment. If a person is liked by 13280 persons then it is a whopping 99.6% which makes him/her a very reputable or popular or well liked person. However, all it takes is 50 persons to hate him/her enough to zap him, then that's it. He/she becomes the most hated person with a lowest rep points of -50. As someone's signature once said someone said, "All it takes for evil to triump is for good people to do nothing". This logic can be loosely applied to this case. And especailly when one have a limited vote of 2 per day, most people wouldn't want to use it unless they really have to. However, I'm not saying that people who are of below average rep points are good people. They could be bad. In fact they could be either.

I'm just sharing my opinion because I find this reputation system very interesting. It appears to work, and it works in ways that are not directly obvious. Hope we can have a discussion about its effects (on human behavior) in a logical and rational manner now that time has passed a little for us to see the repercussions of this new implementation. Also hopefully I have not confused anybody because I'm also a little confused myself

the number of 13000 , is yes, the number of registered members but in reality, the number of members actively engaged surfing AF is about 400 daily. I think practically, we shd look more at active members.

practically it is very difficult for a person to achieve -50, unless he's really disliked by the majority and he has no frens at all. He needs 60 people to zap him and no one to add him. Not tat it is impossible, but its highly unlikely.

U mentioned most people wouldn't want to use it unless they have to, since the vote is limited to 1 daily. If this is the case when it comes to adding, its also the case when it comes to zapping. And its intentionally configured such so tat any giving of reputations is done selectively. If it is required, I can even tweaked it to 1 vote daily or give reputation power to people with a longer registration date and minimum posts to reduce of the number of eligible members giving out rep points.

[jwhtan]

Originally Posted by artifect2002

I have a suggestion, why not make it like the yahoo auction, where you can rate people also. To pinalise people, you have to write some details as least even if you get penalised, people reading the reasons can judge. If not, it is not fair for those falsely accused to remain unknown.

there is actually a hack, called a traders ratings but because of our own reasons that we dun want AF to be cast in the light of a buy/sell platform, we decided not to proceed with that. With all due respect, I really dun see wat giving reasons can do ... we've all seen remarks like " not a true arokeeper " when someone sells his aro and then for the next few days , u'll see the person who got zapped with those remarks harping on that in whichever thread he goes to