Genetics , Breeding and Cross Breeding

John,

I failed my biology in 'O' levels but i find what u are saying makes sense to me. What i have observed in koi breeding is that the F1 offspring either look like the mother (which is desired) or the father, not a combination of the two.

Agree with u that the perception of aro breeding process has been over-simplified & sensationalised somehow...

Thanks for stepping out to address this issue. Cheers!

[Fire87]

Originally Posted by jwhtan

does it make economical sense to u for the farms to do this ?

take a count , from the first parents of a Xback and a RTG (assuming they does this) to the F3 generation to produce this .... say 15 years .... 15 years to use XBacks to breed and with a carefully selective programme with these extensive efforts to produce this strain which is not exactly well priced, would u do this ?

or u would have used the xback breeding stocks by itself to produce more xbacks ?

this is assuming that farms in Indonesia have an abundance of xback breeding stocks which in reality, they dun have

However, we do see a difference between the RTGs from all the different farms. If it's not crossbred, we should see more or less a pretty uniform standard in the market. Else why would we be seeing some farms consistantly churning out rtgs with yellow transparent tails, yet the same coloration does not appear in rtgs of another farm?

Would selective breeding to produce rtgs with higher shine take a shorter time? I doubt so.

What if Xbacks are not in the equation? What if the programs had started already 10 years ago?

[untouchables]

Originally Posted by jwhtan

if u breed a Red with a XBack, you get in this first generation an aro that looks either like the Red or the XBack and not a combination of both.

base on ur statement, a red x green = red or green but 100% of the time, we end up seeing 1.5 reds, ie traits of both red and green.

in any mixed breeding, there are bound to be both parents genes showing but the end result is based on which is the dominant genes. guppy breeders will be able to share on this since guppy breeding is primarily based on genes tracking.

for ty, first generation cannot be predicted so it is a risk to buy small. siblings will show different characteristics as well. what some farms do is to try to develop stable genes after 3-4 generations. check out dfi rose gold. they choose the first generation ty with a particular trait, like big finnages of red, deep core colours of xback, etc and breed them... over 2-3 generations, we can expect offsprings to resemble parents and siblings to resemble siblings but there are bound to be some odd ones. this is how people breed other fishes like lh, guppies, discus, etc.

as for hbrtg, there may be possibility of getting 5th based on 4th + 6th... chinese marry indian = ??? 99% of them are not as fair as chinese nor as dark as indian rite?

[jwhtan]

Originally Posted by terence28

John,

I failed my biology in 'O' levels but i find what u are saying makes sense to me. What i have observed in koi breeding is that the F1 offspring either look like the mother (which is desired) or the father, not a combination of the two.

Agree with u that the perception of aro breeding process has been over-simplified & sensationalised somehow...

Thanks for stepping out to address this issue. Cheers!

I fear more when hobbyists put two and two together and arrive at some funny conclusions. It doesn't help when many workers of farms do not understand even abt basic genetics and pass on these misinformation on to hobbyists who take it as the whole truth and spread it like the gospel.

Originally Posted by Fire87

However, we do see a difference between the RTGs from all the different farms. If it's not crossbred, we should see more or less a pretty uniform standard in the market. Else why would we be seeing some farms consistantly churning out rtgs with yellow transparent tails, yet the same coloration does not appear in rtgs of another farm?

We do see the same thing in reds (orangy looking red, dark blood red colouration and so on ...) , xb, greens and not to mention 1.5 reds. parent A1 and parent A2's offspring will never be exactly the same as parent B1 and Parent B2's offspring even though they are the same species .

As long as the parents are different, no 2 different lines will look exactly simillar

Originally Posted by jwhtan

I fear more when hobbyists put two and two together and arrive at some funny conclusions. It doesn't help when many workers of farms do not understand even abt basic genetics and pass on these misinformation on to hobbyists who take it as the whole truth and spread it like the gospel.

and not forgetting the marketing strategies...

[jwhtan]

Originally Posted by Fire87

However, we do see a difference between the RTGs from all the different farms. If it's not crossbred, we should see more or less a pretty uniform standard in the market. Else why would we be seeing some farms consistantly churning out rtgs with yellow transparent tails, yet the same coloration does not appear in rtgs of another farm?

Would selective breeding to produce rtgs with higher shine take a shorter time? I doubt so.

What if Xbacks are not in the equation? What if the programs had started already 10 years ago?

why do we see some rtgs with yellow tails ? this comes back to the thread where we were talking abt how pure our aros really are ... and why do some farms always have this trait ? tat is again because of the brooding stock...

would selective breeding take a shorter time, yes and no ... effectively it takes one generation less if u subscribed to the xb/rtg theory but further to tat, no since they all take at least 4 years each generation.

[jwhtan]

Originally Posted by untouchables

base on ur statement, a red x green = red or green but 100% of the time, we end up seeing 1.5 reds, ie traits of both red and green.

in any mixed breeding, there are bound to be both parents genes showing but the end result is based on which is the dominant genes. guppy breeders will be able to share on this since guppy breeding is primarily based on genes tracking.

for ty, first generation cannot be predicted so it is a risk to buy small. siblings will show different characteristics as well. what some farms do is to try to develop stable genes after 3-4 generations. check out dfi rose gold. they choose the first generation ty with a particular trait, like big finnages of red, deep core colours of xback, etc and breed them... over 2-3 generations, we can expect offsprings to resemble parents and siblings to resemble siblings but there are bound to be some odd ones. this is how people breed other fishes like lh, guppies, discus, etc.

as for hbrtg, there may be possibility of getting 5th based on 4th + 6th... chinese marry indian = ??? 99% of them are not as fair as chinese nor as dark as indian rite?

this is not entirely correct ... if u breed a red and a green .... u can get in the first generation (F1) offsprings tat looked either like a red or a green ... it will be the subsequent generation tat will show traits of a combination depending on which gene is dominant or recessive

look again when u look at offsprings of Indian/Chinese ... they do look like one or the other, not necessarily a combination of both

Originally Posted by jwhtan

does it make economical sense to u for the farms to do this ?

take a count , from the first parents of a Xback and a RTG (assuming they does this) to the F3 generation to produce this .... say 15 years .... 15 years to use XBacks to breed and with a carefully selective programme with these extensive efforts to produce this strain which is not exactly well priced, would u do this ?

or u would have used the xback breeding stocks by itself to produce more xbacks ?

this is assuming that farms in Indonesia have an abundance of xback breeding stocks which in reality, they dun have

as some bros have commented.... it could have done so many years ago....

RTG stock indo has plenty... but XB not many....thus they might buy in a few XBs to breed with rtgs (and get XBs offsprings since A+B u can get A or B)....jus assuming..... (i got no proof )

[jwhtan]

Originally Posted by kimkuan

as some bros have commented.... it could have done so many years ago....

RTG stock indo has plenty... but XB not many....thus they might buy in a few XBs to breed with rtgs (and get XBs offsprings since A+B u can get A or B)....jus assuming..... (i got no proof )

actually if u looked closely today, those HBRTGs are almost certainly from local farms