Cycling a New Tank.

[vtec3100]

Sorry guys,
I have a question...no, in fact 2 questions,
appreciate if someone could enlighten me...

1) When we talk about cycling tank with market prawn,
once the prawn decomposed, it is definately going to produce ammonia, but will it produce any other substances (which might be bad for your prize fish) beside ammonia??
do u keep adding market prawn say every 2-3days just to maintain the high level of ammonia?

2) say if i have already went thru a full nitrogen cycle with heavy load of BB cultivated inside my canister.
when i introduce my Aro into the tank, (say just 1 single Aro with no tank mate at all).
1 Aro will not produced as much ammonia as compare to the market prawn during cycling.
does that mean that the BB will ultimately die off due to insufficient "food" for them??
thus falling back to something like new tank sydrome.

Thanks

[Madmax]

Originally posted by vtec3100
Sorry guys,
I have a question...no, in fact 2 questions,
appreciate if someone could enlighten me...

1) When we talk about cycling tank with market prawn,
once the prawn decomposed, it is definately going to produce ammonia, but will it produce any other substances (which might be bad for your prize fish) beside ammonia??
do u keep adding market prawn say every 2-3days just to maintain the high level of ammonia?

2) say if i have already went thru a full nitrogen cycle with heavy load of BB cultivated inside my canister.
when i introduce my Aro into the tank, (say just 1 single Aro with no tank mate at all).
1 Aro will not produced as much ammonia as compare to the market prawn during cycling.
does that mean that the BB will ultimately die off due to insufficient "food" for them??
thus falling back to something like new tank sydrome.

Thanks

1) Articles on the web suggest using MP to rot and generate the ammonia. But it did not say whether to throw a piece every few days. I have never tried it. But I can visualise it being very murky and smelly when it starts to rot. Hence that is why I use BPs to cycle my tank.

2) I think some bb will die off as there is competition for ammonia. The bb present after a period is sufficient to sustain the aro. That is why when you introduce new tankmates, it is important not to dump a whole lot together. But to rather introduce into your tank over a period of time. This allows the bb to grow in size to accommodate to the bioload of the fishes.

[Arrowana Boi]

Originally posted by AroLuohan
bro Arrowana Boi,

What if I decide to add about 1" thick of volcanic crystalized sand (cat 0.5 type) in my tank now? Issit advisable? Will it affect the pH of my water and will the maintenance be easy?

My current 4 footer has being running well biologically with NH4=0, N03=0 and N02 < 10ppm. pH = 6.0... keeping my aro and about 10 small tankmates.

Advise please...

Hi Aro Luohan, regarding ur question, i believe ur setup is now in a mature and in equilibrium state. By adding a layer of about 1inch of gravel, keeping the water level constant, will mean that u lose about 4-5 gallons of water in total, well thats nothing to worry about. I doubt that little would alter the filtration efficiency significantly. The only thing is that u will have to be a little more prudent in vacuuming ur substrate. I noe its a back breaking task, so u can actually choose different selected areas to vacuum during each water change and rotate those sites hence forth.

Wat im more concern is the pH characteristic of the gravel altering the water pH over time. Well i cannot tell u off hand now whether those volcanic sand u bought is acidic or basic in nature. These things either effect ur pH or they dont. U can either read watever is written on the plastc bag of the sand or ask the uncle selling u this sand if it alters pH value anot. If theres nothing written on the bag and/or the seller noes nothing about wats he's selling, then i suggest u do a test urself.


So now im posting a simple way to test ur sand w/o risking ur fish and wasting ur money.

Tip:

1. Go get one bag of the sand if u havent bought any yet.
2. Get a container any size u like and fill up half of it with the sand. The best is those standard 1ft tank.
3 Next, thoroughly clean and wash the sand and container.
4. Leave the sand in the container and fill it up with fresh water.
5. Get a pH tester and test the current pH reading. Note it down.
6. Put a pump with airstone in it and start bubbling.
7. Leave it to bubble for a few days to a week.
8. During that period, check the pH level of the water in alternate days.
9. If ur pH change is quite significant, means the sand has pH altering characteristics. If the pH remains relatively the same, means the sand wont change the pH.

Thats all. In this way, u can actually check out whether the sand is suitable for u or not. And u dont risk ur aro's life if ever these sand alters the water's pH value, plus u jus need one bag of the sand to test and answer ur queries , no need to waste so much money right.

The best is to buy aquarium safe gravel in the first place. These gravel dont alter the pH value.

Volcanic sand has been known to be used in planted tanks.
Coral sand is good for those cichlids that prefers hard water.

Hope my tip is useful

[Arrowana Boi]

Originally posted by ken_yg
Good works.
I'm not sure about the part on PH drop during ammonia spike. I notice ph drop only after filter is almost or fully cycled though.

Like to add that many here like me are probably frightened at time by high ammonia (test kits read NH3/NH4) reading from our test kit. And ammonia we learnt at low level are supposed to be toxic, then isn't our aro at danger?
Well, if u read this attached articles, u probably would understand why your aro did't perished that time. http://www.desertaquaria.com/content...ce/ammonia.htm

Interesting bit of information that most of us probably don't know. The level of toxic ammonia at PH 7.5 is probably less than 2% of our test kit reading. So high reading not necessary mean toxic.

Thanks ken for ur support. And its nice that u shared too

Well pH swing during ammonia spikes is pretty usual. Ammonia in the aquarium actually exist in 2 forms side by side. One is poisonous while the other isnt. The one that isnt toxic is acidic by nature and it will lower the pH level of the tank. For the other that is toxic, while it doesnt alter pH level much but it causes severe damage to the fishes in the aquarium. So by monitoring the pH changes we will be able to roughly gauge whether there is a sudden ammonia spike.

This is also primarily the reason why many aro keepers will keep a bag of coral chips either in the tank or filter to act as a buffer against a sudden large pH swing in case of an ammonia spike. Large change of pH level in a very short span is very fatal to the aro. They can tolerate a large range of pH level slowly over a period of time but not so at a very short span. It will send the aro into a pH shock and kill it.
Water's pH level in nature doesnt alter by alot very quickly too am i right?

Ammonia spike altering the pH level is also the reason why many very serious hobbyist or aro sellers will invest in an all time monitoring electronic pH tester in their water to monitor the water's pH level closely at all times. It gives them first hand basic info on the waters condition. When experienced in deciphering the meanings behind the readings, hobbyist or sellers can noe wats happening to the water condition at a single glance at the pH reading.

So basically if u are a person who dreads doing alot of water tests, then i think basically u should at least have a pH tester. And next, a stick on ammonia alert in the tank would be good too as it tells whether the ammonia is in safe level at all times.
These 2 items arent expensive and very easy to use and read.

Ammonia level when high usually gives a lower pH reading if the water is not buffered. But when the water is buffered, we can only rely on the ammonia testing kit to check the ammonia level. But usually in a mature tank with coral chips as buffer, and no sudden increase in bioload, the whole system will adjust itself pretty well to handle itself.

Remember, overall high or lower pH level of the water is not the biggest problem if it happen over a period of time. But if that large pH change occurs over a short period of time, it could be fatal for ur fish.

[Arrowana Boi]

Originally posted by vtec3100
Sorry guys,
I have a question...no, in fact 2 questions,
appreciate if someone could enlighten me...

1) When we talk about cycling tank with market prawn,
once the prawn decomposed, it is definately going to produce ammonia, but will it produce any other substances (which might be bad for your prize fish) beside ammonia??
do u keep adding market prawn say every 2-3days just to maintain the high level of ammonia?

2) say if i have already went thru a full nitrogen cycle with heavy load of BB cultivated inside my canister.
when i introduce my Aro into the tank, (say just 1 single Aro with no tank mate at all).
1 Aro will not produced as much ammonia as compare to the market prawn during cycling.
does that mean that the BB will ultimately die off due to insufficient "food" for them??
thus falling back to something like new tank sydrome.

Thanks

Regarding ur question, i guess bro madmaxx had been a great help, he had answered most of wat i had wanted to.

1.

Ok, ammonia and some other chemicals are produced during decomposition and afaik, these chemicals will not be present in quantities large enuff to harm ur fish, ammonia would have been one of the main waste products.

And yes, i do add in another piece or two of MP every 4-5 days to boost the ammonia level abit. But that period might be a little stinko, depending, but dont worry, once the cycle is over, clear up all these food and change about 20% of the water. Put in active charcoal to absorb bad smell if it persists. After the odour is gone, jus throw away the activated charcoal.

Voila ur done with fishless cycle. But imo, if u can seed ur tank, life will be easier and things will be faster.

2.

Ok, lets say, after ur full cycle and then the bioload is actually smaller than what is required by the BB, it will jus slowly shrink to an appropriate size over a period of time. Dont worry they will be jus as efficient. There wont be a new tank syndrome, that only occurs in un cycled water.
And like wat mad maxx had said, avoid sudden increase in bioload by having sudden increase in the livestocks of ur tank. U can increase the live stock no doubt, but pls do so slowly and allow time for ur bb to grow and cultvate to a size that will be able to handle the extra waste being produced.

Thanks for your great article.

I have a question for you if you can please help me. I have a new tank and I used some of the old filter media from an old tank to cycle the new tank. The ammonia level took about one week to spike and then drop. But then the nitrite and nitrate levels start to spike and remained high for at least 2 weeks liao (nitrite is probably 3.3mg/L). Previously I changed water 3 times a week in attempt to reduce the nitrite and nitrate. But the levels still remain high up to today. My tank is also quite cloudy I guess because the water condition is not tip top.

I have a 7" jardini, one MS, one ST, and one pleco in the tank. Running 2 canister filters: eheim 2208 and one other cheap brand at 1200l/hr.

The fishes are swimming ok and have good appetite.

Is my tank cycling right and should I get a nitrite remover to reduce the nitrite?

Originally posted by Arrowana Boi

Well pH swing during ammonia spikes is pretty usual. Ammonia in the aquarium actually exist in 2 forms side by side. One is poisonous while the other isnt. The one that isnt toxic is acidic by nature and it will lower the pH level of the tank. For the other that is toxic, while it doesnt alter pH level much but it causes severe damage to the fishes in the aquarium. So by monitoring the pH changes we will be able to roughly gauge whether there is a sudden ammonia spike.

This is also primarily the reason why many aro keepers will keep a bag of coral chips either in the tank or filter to act as a buffer against a sudden large pH swing in case of an ammonia spike. Large change of pH level in a very short span is very fatal to the aro. They can tolerate a large range of pH level slowly over a period of time but not so at a very short span. It will send the aro into a pH shock and kill it.
Water's pH level in nature doesnt alter by alot very quickly too am i right?

Ammonia spike altering the pH level is also the reason why many very serious hobbyist or aro sellers will invest in an all time monitoring electronic pH tester in their water to monitor the water's pH level closely at all times. It gives them first hand basic info on the waters condition. When experienced in deciphering the meanings behind the readings, hobbyist or sellers can noe wats happening to the water condition at a single glance at the pH reading.

So basically if u are a person who dreads doing alot of water tests, then i think basically u should at least have a pH tester. And next, a stick on ammonia alert in the tank would be good too as it tells whether the ammonia is in safe level at all times.
These 2 items arent expensive and very easy to use and read.

Ammonia level when high usually gives a lower pH reading if the water is not buffered. But when the water is buffered, we can only rely on the ammonia testing kit to check the ammonia level. But usually in a mature tank with coral chips as buffer, and no sudden increase in bioload, the whole system will adjust itself pretty well to handle itself.

Bro, I'm correcting a few mistakes here. Hope u dun feel offended.

1. Well pH swing during ammonia spikes is pretty usual.
pH swing is not caused by ammonia spike. U can still experience ammonia spike while cycling a marine tank with const pH 8.2. pH swing is caused by low KH. If yr KH is high, e pH will stay const even when ammonia spikes. If u r experiencing pH swing during ammonia spike, its purely coincidental tat e carbonate/bicarbonate ions r depleted during e cycling process.

2. The one that isnt toxic is acidic by nature and it will lower the pH level of the tank.
Ammonia when in contact with water, exists in 2 forms : Ammonia (NH₃) and Ammonium ion (NH₄⁺). Ammonia is highly toxic while ammonium is relatively harmless. The toxicity of ammonia also depends on pH n temp. The higher e pH n temp, e more toxic ammonia is. Ammonia is alkaline by nature n has a pH of 10-11. Its often used to raise e pH in pharmaceutical n food industries.

3. This is also primarily the reason why many aro keepers will keep a bag of coral chips either in the tank or filter to act as a buffer against a sudden large pH swing in case of an ammonia spike.
As mentioned abv pH swing is not caused by ammonia spike. Coral chips r used to provide buffering capacity (cabonate/bicarbonate ions) that r depleted in e nutrification process.

4. Ammonia level when high usually gives a lower pH reading if the water is not buffered.
Strictly speaking ammonia does not cause pH to drop. Its e by product of e nutrification process (H+) tat causes e pH to drop when KH is low. We all know nutrification process produces 2 by products : nitrite n nitrate. Actually e correct way to say is e nutrification process produces nitrous acid HNO2 n nitrate acid HNO3 as by products. These 2 acids in water r broken down into nitrite ion NO2-, nitrate ion NO3- n H+ ion :

HNO2 --> NO2- + H+
HNO3 --> NO3- + H+

Its e H+ ions produced tat is lowering e pH by depleting e carbonate/bicarbonate ions.

[Arrowana Boi]

Originally posted by arofans
Bro, I'm correcting a few mistakes here. Hope u dun feel offended.

1. Well pH swing during ammonia spikes is pretty usual.
pH swing is not caused by ammonia spike. U can still experience ammonia spike while cycling a marine tank with const pH 8.2. pH swing is caused by low KH. If yr KH is high, e pH will stay const even when ammonia spikes. If u r experiencing pH swing during ammonia spike, its purely coincidental tat e carbonate/bicarbonate ions r depleted during e cycling process.

2. The one that isnt toxic is acidic by nature and it will lower the pH level of the tank.
Ammonia when in contact with water, exists in 2 forms : Ammonia (NH₃) and Ammonium ion (NH₄⁺). Ammonia is highly toxic while ammonium is relatively harmless. The toxicity of ammonia also depends on pH n temp. The higher e pH n temp, e more toxic ammonia is. Ammonia is alkaline by nature n has a pH of 10-11. Its often used to raise e pH in pharmaceutical n food industries.

3. This is also primarily the reason why many aro keepers will keep a bag of coral chips either in the tank or filter to act as a buffer against a sudden large pH swing in case of an ammonia spike.
As mentioned abv pH swing is not caused by ammonia spike. Coral chips r used to provide buffering capacity (cabonate/bicarbonate ions) that r depleted in e nutrification process.

4. Ammonia level when high usually gives a lower pH reading if the water is not buffered.
Strictly speaking ammonia does not cause pH to drop. Its e by product of e nutrification process (H+) tat causes e pH to drop when KH is low. We all know nutrification process produces 2 by products : nitrite n nitrate. Actually e correct way to say is e nutrification process produces nitrous acid HNO2 n nitrate acid HNO3 as by products. These 2 acids in water r broken down into nitrite ion NO2-, nitrate ion NO3- n H+ ion :

HNO2 --> NO2- + H+
HNO3 --> NO3- + H+

Its e H+ ions produced tat is lowering e pH by depleting e carbonate/bicarbonate ions.

Hi arofan, no probs, im not offened at all. Infact im quite happy and thankful that u wrote out this post and saved me the need to do so in such details again in future.
Actually its already been discussed in a link that bro ken_yg provided earlier on so i gather, i shant repeat the whole thing again but jus gave a general description and in less complicated terms too to prevent the other bros from having a hard time deciphering what's what. Those interested in the finer details might wanna look up that thread instead which has got tables and graphs for better explanation too.

Basically im very well aware of the increase in the toxicity level of ammonia in higher temperature and pH level. And im aware too of the presence of ammonium and ammonia as the two main forms of ammonia when dissolved in water. And ammonia is alkaline by nature and toxic while ammonium is acidic but harmless.

Noe that the main culprit of pH dips is during the whole nitrification process depleting those free ions. So all in all, it still sums up to an increase probability of a swing in pH level during an ammonia spike if u dont have coral chips in ur freshwater tank to act as a buffer for the extra ions to be used during the sudden increase of nitrification process. Thats also why i have repeatedly advise the use of coral chips in the tank to act as a buffer to prevent pH dips.

Actually the previous link that bro ken_yg posted has got an indepth explanation about the 2 different ammonia forms and their individual charecteristics under different condition too. Its quite a useful link with much explanations.

Well, ammonia spike certainly can occur while still maintaining a relatively high pH reading, and as i have said earlier on, its best to have dedicated ammonia tester to test for ammonia levels. But the difference is that the probability of a erratic pH readings is higher during an ammonia spike which will cause a sudden increase in need for those free ions. This is also why i explained that an all time pH or ammonia monitoring kit is the best bet.

But what i have wanted to stress on is that ammonia burnings plus pH swing (which may happen), can be fatal to the aro. Double impact imo. Thats why, even if we fail to prevent an ammonia spike, the least we can do is try to prevent a pH swing by having the coral chips act as a pH "maintaining" agent. U said that pH swings during an ammonia spike is purely coincidental due to the depletion of the free ions in the water, but we would really like to further reduce or totally eradicate even that slightest coincidental chance of a pH change. How do we do so? Add appropriate amount of coral chips. Simple as that

Plus, conditions in a marine tank is very different from freshwater tank. Marine tanks will have coral sand and etc which is required naturally in the first place, this already is sort of a buffer agent. But in a fresh water tank we will have to mimick that a little by adding in coral chips to act as the buffer.

But ur post is indeed good, indepth and informative. Im glad there are guys like u bros who are very willing to share with others.

First of all, i certainly hope that the fishes u mentioned above arent ur prized collection and yet being used in the cycling process.

Well, my jardini is not expensive so I don't know about it being a prized fish. But I have kept it for 6 months now so I suppose there is sentimental value to me. I didn't plan to use the jardini in the cycling process...thought the ammonia has dropped and nitrite & nitrate will be ok because I have used old filter media

And during the cycling process, avoid too much water changes. Just a little per week will suffice. Cos if u do frequent large water changes, the entire cycling process will stretch for a longer period before reaching a state of equilibrium with the tank's bioload. Dont try to force the nitrite and nitrate down on purpose by water changes, let them fall naturally. The BB should do the work not u right?

Yeah! I agree to that - BB should do the work and not me splashing all the water on the floor during the water changes.

OK, I guess I have to be patient and not do water changes for at least one week. Thanks for the tip on nitrite/nitrate remover, but I am still very concerned for my fishies in the current environment even though they are still eating a lot

As for ur filter, it depends largely on tank size and bioload. Normally a 2028 is good for a 4 footer. Try to achieve a filter config of 4x total tank volume through filter per hour at least. And if the bioload gets higher over time, be prepared to increase filtration capacity.

You mean having 2 filters may not be as effective "as one that achieve a filter config of 4x total tank volume through filter per hour at least"? By the way, what is that config? - I am just a girl and thus whatever you just said to me means absolutely nothing to me

[xzied]

hello this cycling water thing is really interesting, saw this post last nite, today i went to some lfs, some of them dun even know abt cycling of tank!

i saw some products that has bacteria which can be use, now instead of cultivating bacteria from cycling and wait for few weeks, u can just add the bacteria in. one of them the brand is "ocean free" cost like $30! and another one which look like some little clay balls that it says has inbuilt bacteria inside???

anybody has used such products? comments?

me going to get a 4ft tank tmrw~! yipee so need to check around really dun wan to post in "Arowana Loss" forum after one or two days getting my fish! hehe