The deluded concept about coconut juice to reduce pH

Originally Posted by zihao

Luckily you are not those dragons that I talked about in my signature
Anyway, human thoughts are something I have been trying hard to decipher. Many things ironically happens though it shouldn't. This brings in my bewilderment...

Like i give 2 hoots.

I'd really like to tell you about my kois, plants, cichlids and catfishes. How big and old they are, how i've come to acquire and like them. I'd also like to tell you about what I do, how i've come along this far with fish, fins and shells, crawlies, and got to be good with them. I'd like to tell you how I handle some 200 Kg size halibuts and stripping a couple of hundred salmon in the glacier mountains of montana. Really.

Unfortunately, I don't hang around godlike people and you probably are completely indifferent. You can figure I won't be rooting for you. Ha...

Back to current exchange. Do you know of people who run salmon hatchery that supports a multi-billion dollar industry? They use test kits as well, everyday on their multi-million dollar recirc systems.

Can you spot brown blood disease with your eyes? You probably can. You probably can see all the world's symptoms but you see, when you can see with your own eyes, your fish is probably half dead. The question is, would a multibillion dollar industry put their money on your eyes and gut feelings alone?

Have you ever come across host-pathogen-env relationship model? I bet a million to one, you'll appreciate the simplicity and nature of it, once you've been expose to and come to understand it.

I'm gone for 1 night & this thread is getting more interesting.

I do agree that symptoms are more important to arrive at a diagnosis than test kits. However signalment & history is usually the key for you to draw up a list of differentials. As a vet, I often rely on the history from the owner for information such as, when did lesions start & however quickly it has manifestated itself, what's the regular husbandry practices, etc. With a good history, looking at clinical symptoms gives you a better picture of the possible differential diagnosis. The tests are simply there to help narrow down & rule out other differentials & arrive at the diagnosis.

It's sometimes difficult for the average hobbyist to give an accurate description of clinical signs, simply because they are not trained to identify the abnormal or they may not have seen enough of the normal to know what's abnormal. Hence we always emphasise on aromedics that hobbyists follow the guidelines in the sticky to provide a good history. More often than not they don't do it. Thinking that just by saying "My aro has a white spot on fin, what is the problem". I usually reply that I would have to be God to diagnose the problem just with that kind of information.

In fish keeping, there are just a few fundamental principals to ensure a healthy fish. It's the basics that hobbyists should strive to understand before going into the hobby. Unfortunately is this not the case for most people. So many times have I seen people with poor husbandry practices. People who panic at the slightest problem & over medicate, resulting in dead fishes. I have just one advice for hobbyist, get your basics right & keep it simple.

Originally Posted by lbei

What if the gill movements are slightly more laboured, colour of waste and texture and size and density and everything else is normal? Stomach is flat, not sunken nor bloated.?

By the way I'm not implying that those signs I stated earlier are patterns linked to water parameters problems. They are signs that could or could not be due to water. I only put out some common 'symptoms' because I am curious what you will do in such cases. My point is that instead of guessing whether it is the water, why not just make a quick test?

Got what you meant bro. I think I had a habbit of assuming that the others do regular water changes or are at least very confident of their water parameters like myself without any need to check it with those kits.

Originally Posted by Vetduck

I have just one advice for hobbyist, get your basics right & keep it simple.

Well said.
Simplicity is bliss.

Hi Vetduck,

Welcome to the discussion. Thanks for the agreement.

I should define the test kits that we are talking about here are water-parameter related. Not those clinic tests that we run. It may help to narrow down but boarden the possibility at times too. You should know better of this. Sometimes facts just conctradict.

Agree. I would rather them take a picture or two. Some even take cotton infestions as spots till the picture is shown. It is pretty dangerous to just diagnose without a picture by just listening to what the owner says. But in the end, it is the owner's way of describing the symptoms. One wrong move - belly up fish.

Indeed, Kenny and you have been doing a good job as usual on that.
Any plans for a proper archive of diseases as most of them just dont search but they might have higher chances to look at pinned properly archived thread.

Throwing my hat into the discussion as well.

Symptoms are crucial, true, but it is highly erroneous to say that test reading evaluation has been over-emphasized. The critical flaw with symptom based diagnosis is that the conditions are mimicked by dozens upon dozens of other illnesses. This in turn leads to the dilemma- what do I do to treat; what works on one does not work on the other. Symptoms will give you a good idea what you're dealing with, undeniable. The problem is really the wide range of diseases all demonstrating the same symptoms. This is what tests will do- pinpoint the illness to a much smaller group of possibilities, in many cases down to just 1. That will give you a much better outcome majority of the time compared to purely symptomatic diagnosis. And we always bet on the biggest path of recovery.

It also is a big help for the untrained eye. Not everyone has the ability to spot illnesses. But by keeping in mind a few sets of acceptable test results, there is a better chance of knowing if something is wrong, and what possible diseases may be present, with very little formal training or experience. It is an invaluable tool for the general populace. If I may make an analogy, if a person comes up with a recurrent warm forehead, id say he might be sick, perhaps its time for treatment, depending on how sensitive your hands are to gauging heat. Did you just come from the oven cooking, doubt that you'd say it feels feverish. On the other hand, mention a 43 C temperature, every tom dick and harry knows that you've got a fever running there, time to seek help or treatment.

Symptom based medicine will catch some of the diseases. Purely test based diagnosing will catch some diseases. Either one alone will get some good results, and miss others, so both are flawed alone. But using just one is heck of a lot better that using none at all. Combine the two, and you get excellent medicine. Id say both are equally vital, and equally improtant.

Fraserlo, thanks for taking your time to type that, though I welcome you to talk about those in your own thread. Perhaps it would be great that you can read my earlier post.
Talking about test kits again, most would only use them when they see abnormal symptoms. My point is parallel to what Vetduck has said: "symptoms are more important to arrive at a diagnosis than test kits" and he is correct too about the signalment & history.

You said: "when you can see with your own eyes, your fish is probably half dead."
Indeed, that is what I have been saying. Most would only conduct tests prior to seeing symptoms. That is the irony that I have been talking about. Perhaps you can read my posts again. Dont get agitated or personal that you skip those important lines. I think I have put it across correctly as Vetduck interpreted it correctly.

Hi Vincent,

Welcome to the discussion.

As what I have agreed on and what Vetduck said, signalment & history run together with symptoms analysis. I assume the test are those water parameters test and not other determining clinical tests. If so, I have to perhaps say that for the 3rd time (maybe I did not get it over this understanding?), that many use these readings over symptoms and put them in first priority instead.

Yap, should we push for a pictorial archive for the people with untrained eyes?

Yes, cant they can't go alone depending the hobbyist level of discipline. But it could. If proper management of the water with regular partila water change, you can throw these tests away.

Hi zihao, that point you repeated for the 3rd time was exactly why I mentioned that tools are invaluable- they work so well for the untrained eye. For me, let people become sticklers and obsessive with the test results, and worry when parameters go off just a little bit. Let people blame parameters when they see something wrong. Why? -They seek help. When they ask for help, they become enlightened more and more about diseases and proper aro care, and what tests show and dont show. It aids the growth of the owner in understanding fish keeping, and keeps the aro healthier. Attention is called to any lapse in care, like in water change, or diseases caught earlier, because the owner did a test, and it told him something was wrong. Its an easy, definitive, and concrete tool that will alert the owner to possible danger, whether parameters are the true cause or not.

To ask a newbie or inexperienced owner to diagnose using just sympoms is a risky concept if you undervalue test results; concrete data must be tied in with observed facts, since those observed facts are very subjective. Recognize the symptoms, but you must test it and back it up. Water parameters alone are the cause of many illnesses that show symptoms similar to serious conditions. If the parameters are normal, but the fish is still sick- well, time to look for more reasons.

When it comes to the trained people- its a different story. At this level, the person should be using symptoms to guide diagnosis, and tests to verify and define treatment.

Symptoms and tests are equally crucial, neither is less important, and should be taken with the other to achieve maximum potential for diagnosis.

I think we're all of the agreement both tests/test kits & clinical signs are important to diagnosing problems. The receipe to a successful diagnosis is history, clinical signs, tests(be it test kits or cytology or gill biopsy etc) & experience. Without the experience a clinical sign may give you a whole heap of differentials. However experience enables one to narrow down the list of differentials quickly & choose to appropriate tests required.

To have a archive of diseases with pics is possible. However the danger to that is people will tend to base their diagnosis just by comparing the pics & relying solely on clinical signs. Most hobbyists would not have the facilities nor the knowledge to perform cytology or faecal smears to validate their diagnosis & this would lead to misdiagnosis & wrong treatment.

Hades put up a thread before on a list of aro diseases & their treatment. It was a good effort on his part to put the list together. However there are only certain medications that one would use as a broad spectrum or shotgun treatment. If forumers can follow the guidelines to posting a problem, it would be easier for advice to be given & as they can follow the diagnostic steps, it'll be a learning process as well.

On the issue about throwing test kits away...I feel that the basic test kits of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate & pH is still an essential part of any hobbyist's tool box. One should be aware of the accuracy of the kits used. Some kits are better than others. Even with regular water change & proper husbandry, test kits would come in handy in the event a problem should crop up. It's more of a matter of the kits being there when you need it.